Can you imagine the cries from the Dems of fraud and intimidation had Allen, Burns or Talent won their respective races by the margins the Dem won? The three combined lost by less than half of what Kerry lost by in Ohio:
Allen lost by 7,217
Burns lost by 2,847
Talent lost by 41,537
Kerry lost by 118,559
No calls for recounts, no claims of fraud and intimidation at the polls. Instead three gracious statesmen accepted defeat and moved on. Allen was even legally allowed to have a recount by VA law paid for by the state and he didn't even ask for it saying the voters have chosen. What a difference between the parties.
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Considering that every computer-voting mishap I've ever researched skewed heavily towards the Republican candidate, I agree that that there should be recounts--to see how those Democrats didn't win with LARGER numbers.
Good try Ian...at least you haven't gone as far as one lefty who I read who is saying that we did steal the election as always and that we lost it on purpose so that the Dems can get the blame the next two years for Iraq to help us in '08.
Yah, Republicans have a lot more class and grace, there is no doubt about it.
You can bet in the Allen & Burns races that had the Democrats lost by those amounts they would've fought it tooth and nail. And we'd still be hearing Jesse Jackson whining about disenfranchisement.
So Nick, should the Democrats have just shown "civility and grace" when voting machines showed discrepancies in Ohio, home of Diebold, whose president said he was "committed to delivering Ohio to George W. Bush?"
I guarantee you that if George Soros had owned Diebold, and he said he was "committed to delivering California to John Kerry," then there would be no "grace and civility" by the GOP.
Ian: Get a grip man..... really.
There's never been one case in the last six years (or before that I can remember) where anyone affiliated with the GOP has been charged, let alone convicted of vote fraud, vote tampering, voter suppression or voter intimidation.
I won't take up all the space on Cajun's comment stream to list all the charges and succesful prosecutions of DEMOCRATS during this same period.
It amazes me that with the wonderful victory Dems achieved this year, there would be sore winners like you casting a pall over your victory with tired, totally unsubstantiated, unwarranted, counterproductive conspiracy mongering.
I realize there are a fair number of you folks who would prefer we govern on the basis of media generated opinion polls, as you folks find those so much easier to rig and misinterpret. But sorry pal, we aren't about to chuck the Constitution out just because you say so.
Get over it.
I can't imagine what kind of nonsense you'd be spouting if you lost.
Ian...looks like Nick and Mike have handled it pretty good so I won't pile on more.
Yeah, CT, these guys have piled on ME. They have thoroughly eviscerated ME. Unfortunately, the issue here is not ME! Focus for a second.
My point is that computer voting has had its fair share of irregularities, and that in virtually every case the errors yielded a Republican victory. The head of the company that makes most computerized voting machines is a staunch Republican (and makes no bones about it) and advocates of the machines purport to trust them enough to not need paper trails.
The message I get from all of this is: not only are the machines easily capable of corruption and tampering, but no one involved in the machines' productions seems to think this is a big issue. These machines have been adopted nationwide amid much controversy, and numerous questions still remian about their objectivity. Does wondering how my vote actually registers make me a conspiracy buff?
As an active American citizen, I would assume that ensuring my vote matters would not label me as some unhinged fringe figure. And the fact that all of you are replying with such venom and calls to "get a grip" only further proves that you guys are more interested in shutting up dissenters than you are in making sure our democratic process is untainted by partisan hackery.
Ian...as Mike said there has never been one charge of Repub fraud in an election much less a conviction. However, there are tons of charges and convictions on the Dem side. So, once you address the problems in your party instead of just repeating unsubstantiated theories that have never been proven then we can talk.
Cajun Tiger, I am not a Democrat. They are not "my party." I don't vote lockstep with them, and I don't support everything they do. And if they did indeed rig elections as you guys allege, then that's wrong. But given the outcome of the past few elections prior to 2006, the Democrats are apparently lousy at it.
I say it's the GOP who are more likely the culprits in previous elections because 1) they tended to win the genral elections; 2) what flaws existed leaned heavily GOP; 3) Diebold's CEO is a major Bush fundraiser. Forgive me if any of that seems suspicious. As I said in my very first comment, you'd find that equally fishy if it worked against you.
Nick, I believe the Democrats won fair and square. That doesn't mean I think electronic voting machines don't still possess the potential for corruption, or even that it didn't happen this time around. What I don't understand is everybody's repeated insistence that I'm a conspiracy nut for worrying about this.
Ian...if you quack like a conspiracy nut...walk like a conspiracy nut...
What great proof that Repubs rigged elections..."1) they tended to win the genral elections;" That is such a ridiculous statement. We have won the last few races...so we must have rigged the...however now that the Dems won this time, everything worked fine or we just didn't rig them enough. I mean the country would never willing elect Repubs, so it must have been a rigged election. Nope...sounds nothing like the conspiracy nuts at all.
You are spouting all the same things the Dems have tried time and time again. Please name me one instance that a Repub has been charged with a crime in tampering with an election.
There are many examples of Dems who have.
CT, you're trying to reframe the debate. I have never alleged that any Republican has been charged with voter fraud; I'm saying that computer voting machines are flawed enough to arouse my suspicion. And I'm explaining the incidents that made me feel that way, most of which happen to involve Republicans:
--In November 2002, several local-level races decided by computer ballot (many of them in Texas, and at least one in Maryland) had the winner post exactly 18,181 votes. Some of these counties didn't even have 18,000 registered voters. One of those Texas polls tabulated a landslide for the GOP candidate; but upon further investigation, the registrar of voters determined that the Democrat actually won by a large margin.
--Recent tests of computer voting machines in New Orleans showed that the LCD display (which tells you what button you just pushed) would often display the wrong candidate's name (which gave you the GOP candidate no matter who you pushed). This was demonstrated on HBO.
--The 2002 mid-term election was the first time in decades that the Voter News Service didn't conduct comprehensive exit polling. Ironic, considering what had happened two years before. Historically, VNS polls were so accurate that major networks used them to gauge winners on Election Day, and were used anytime vote counts were up for dispute.
Not all of my problems with computer voting involve the Republican Party. Some involve hackers in general. Diebold's program has actually been published, with some hackers alleging that it's a very easy code to crack and rig.
Finally, I don't doubt the GOP can garner votes without resorting to trickery; but with recent electoral disputes, we cannot afford to ignore any accusation of fraud. I don't do it when it's convenient for me and you shouldn't when it's convenient for you.
Anon...I deleted your comment b/c personal attackes against other commenters are not allowed. You are more than welcome to address any point you like, but I will delete personal attacks every time. As much as I disagree with Ian's point of view, that comment was just completely unnecessary.
Ian...I'll address your comment in a later when I have a little more time but just had to do some quick house cleaning at the moment
I didn't see the personal attack, but I can just about imagine what it said. Personal attacks are but a refuge for those with no argument and even less class.
Ian...you can site your "theories" all day long...when there is ever a conviction and absolute proof of fraud then get back to me. Until then maybe you should focus on the party that has a very very long history of fraud in elections.
President Bush lost Wisconsin in 2004 by some 4000 votes. Of these the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel, a newspaper which no man on earth would construe as a Republican mouthpiece, ran a series of articles about fraud in the city of Milwaukee over roughly 1000 votes. Given that this could be extrapolated over the state there was a REAL question of a Republican win had the fraud not existed, still no one carried on as they did in Ohio.
As for the 2006 loss of the Senate seat in VA, I would like to take this opportunity to speak about that gracious Virginia Gentleman George Allen who I am proud to say was my Congressman and my Governor. His concession speech was the true mark of this good and very decent man. He showed himself to be a true class act, something I already knew but which apparantly VA has forgotten.
JG...thanks for the visit and comment. Very good points. We definitely don't have a gentleman as our Senator now as Webb has already proven by his complete lack of respect for the office of the President with his utter ridiculous behavior at the White House this week.
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